Take Walks: A Love for Rome & Travel Inspired Stephen Oddo to Start Walks, One of The World’s Most Unique Tour Agencies

Today's guest is Stephen Oddo, the founder of Walks, and he joins us to talk about how he started his exclusive tour company and the exciting services they offer. Walks is one of the biggest independent tour companies in the world, focusing on unique and intimate experiences in what is now 14 cities around the globe and counting. Before hearing from Stephen, we kick the show off as usual with some listener questions and travel news, getting into tips for travelers with canceled flights, experiences with foreign food, and the effects that the Delta variant of COVID is having on travel restrictions around the world. Next up, we dive into our interview with Stephen hearing firstly about how his time as a tour guide in Rome inspired him to start Walks. Stephen gets into the founding vision behind his company and his aim to curate experiences that go far beyond what you would expect from its competition, so be sure to tune in and hear all about it!

Today on On Arrival:

•    Stephen’s parents’ careers and how he got his start in the travel industry.

•    What Stephen took away from his experience working for big hotels and as a tour guide.

•    How Stephen’s occupation as a tour guide in Rome grew into his founding Walks.

•    Stephen’s aim to incorporate technology as a way of building a new kind of tour operation.

•    The accessibility and culture in Rome and what Stephen loves about the city.

•    Insights into the Walks business model and how it urged the company to expand.

•    Political unrest in Turkey and how it affected the Walks business there.

•    Going beyond simple walking tours; the scope of experiences that Walks offers.

•    A brand new, super-exclusive tour of the Sistine Chapel that Walks is offering.

•    Stephen’s recommendations for the Italian city people should visit if they could only go to one.

•    The incredible and exclusive tours that are offered by Walks in Venice.

Visit TakeWalks.com to learn more about Walks and the tours they offer.

Follow Walks on Instagram (You'll thank us!).

Get in touch and connect with Stephen on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter.

If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If you know someone who you think would enjoy this episode, please share it with them!

Follow @onarrivaltravel on Instagram, Facebook, & Twitter

Do you have a burning travel question? Visit www.onarrival.com to submit your question for KT & Jordan to answer on the next show!

Transcript

Episode 16 - Take Walks: A Love for Rome & Travel Inspired Stephen Oddo to Start Walks, One of The World’s Most Unique Tour Agencies

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:07] JM: Welcome to On Arrival, The Traveler’s Podcast. 

[00:00:10] KTMM: We're your hosts, Katie and Jordan. Throughout our 20s, we've lived and traveled all around the world, and fell in love with exploring new cultures.

[00:00:20] JM: Here at On Arrival, we interview some of the world's most eccentric travelers to hear their original and authentic stories.

[00:00:26] KTMM: We hope this show inspires you to take your next trip. 

[00:00:30] JM: And then when you land, you have a game plan. 

[00:00:32] KTMM: On Arrival.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:00:37] KTMM: Thank you everyone for submitting your questions. If you haven't already, you can always go to onarrival.com to ask us your burning travel questions, and we will try to answer them on the show. So our questions today come from Lauren and Jeff. Lauren asked, “What is the first thing I should do if my flight is canceled?” Jordan, take it away.

[00:01:01] JM: I didn't prepare for this. Well, let's give a real life example. Before we went to Aruba, our flight got canceled, and we were flying United. Lucky enough for us, United sent us a text message and said, “Your flight has been canceled. Click this link to look at rebooking options.” So the first thing you need to do is read carefully, whatever it is that you got, whatever notification you got, to make sure you see all your options that they present you with.

[00:01:33] KTMM: Yeah. So I think even before that step, it's a really good idea to sign up for the text notifications about your travel and to download the apps for each of the flight partners that you're going to be flying on. I have all of them on my phone. I have the Lufthansa, Turkish, Spirit.

[00:01:52] JM: Yeah. Make sure when you book your ticket, you put your cell phone number in there. They will send you text updates, even if you don't have app, so that's important.

[00:01:59] KTMM: Yeah. Because when that happened for Aruba, my first thought was to be like, “Oh, my gosh. Our trip is canceled.” Jordan’s like, “No, no, no.” Like, “Look at the app. They gave us five other options for the day.”

[00:02:10] JM: Yeah. We had a new flight booked in 30 minutes maybe and shorter than that, I think.

[00:02:16] KTMM: Then another answer to this question is it reminds me of a personal experience when I was in Germany, and I missed my connecting flight to America. I was flying from Turkey to Germany and then Germany to Detroit. It was such an amazing flight because it was short. I didn't have to fly to a different state or a different city before I flew to Detroit, so I was super bummed about it. 

The first thing that I did was try to find someone at the Lufthansa help desk to help me rebook. So I got in line for that and then I started looking on the app to see what other flights were available. Then I called Jordan as well, and I had Jordan call Lufthansa, and he was on the phone with them, and he actually was able to rebook the flight for me, and I got on another flight to DC, which was taking off in an hour. Don't panic. Just think of the different solutions that you can do to get on your way.

[00:03:17] JM: Yeah. You want to try to rebook as quickly as possible because, obviously, everybody else is too. So you want to definitely try to rebook as quickly as possible.

[00:03:27] KTMM: Yeah. Like don't mess around with being upset and crying and breaking down because you need to take action.

[00:03:31] JM: Find somebody. Yeah. If you can do it on your phone, do it there. But if not, go find somebody. Talk to them. Depending on how much of a delay you have in your trip, you may also be entitled to compensation and certain rights. It depends on where you're at. 

[00:03:47] KTMM: That's a whole another episode, moving on. 

[00:03:49] JM: Yeah. So that's next. Once you rebook, figuring out how to get reimbursed, compensated, whatever for your time, for your delays, and we will cover that another time. Next question.

[00:04:00] KTMM: All right. This one is from Jeff. What is a food you never thought you would eat that you ate? 

[00:04:08] JM: You go first. 

[00:04:09] KTMM: This question is hard because I don't really have an answer to it, which makes the question hard. 

[00:04:14] JM: You don't eat things that you don't think you'll want to eat? 

[00:04:16] KTMM: Yeah. I know I don't like certain things. Like I don't like raw fish, meat, etc., and I don't want to try them. 

[00:04:23] JM: You have to have tried something. Escargot?

[00:04:26] KTMM: No, I like that. 

[00:04:27] JM: But did you think you would like it? Did you think you would try it? 

[00:04:30] KTMM: Yeah. I thought I would. 

[00:04:32] JM: Okay. So she won't touch anything raw but she eats snails. Check that one out. It's all good. 

[00:04:37] KTMM: Love me some snails.

[00:04:39] JM: I also don't like raw stuff. The thing that I ate that I was shocked was actually when we went to the Maldives, and I might have told the story before. So if you heard it before, you go ahead and fast forward through it. If not, you want to hear this.

[00:04:55] KTMM: This was our trip to the Maldives, which we took after his season in Turkey. We flew out to Istanbul, and we got there, and we celebrated our one-year anniversary in the Maldives. 

[00:05:08] JM: I just like to give a shout out before we go any further to my beautiful co-host and a wife on what was our three-year anniversary this past week. It was a pleasure to celebrate with you. It is an absolute privilege to go through life with you. I'm so honored and so happy and just – I don't know. I’m lucky. I'm lucky. I’m lucky. 

[00:05:26] KTMM: Yeah. You love me. We get that. We get that.  

[00:05:28] JM: But anyways, we're in the Maltese and we decided to have a nice dinner. Now, the Western Maldives has three restaurants. There's a beach bar, there's your regular restaurant, and then they have their fancy sushi restaurant. So, of course, you got to go to the fancy sushi restaurant. 

[00:05:43] KTMM: For your anniversary. 

[00:05:44] JM: Yeah, at least once. So we go there, and they know it's our anniversary. But we sit down and we tell them, “Hey, we don't really like raw food.” He must not have understood because five minutes later, he brings out this tray with every single piece of raw sushi they have on their menu and says, “Compliments of the chef.” The sushi chef was not kidding. He was probably 10 feet away from us behind the bar, the sushi bar, and like he's got this huge smile on his face. He's like so proud of the work that he just did making this tray, not knowing that neither one of us wants to touch it. 

[00:06:15] KTMM: Not knowing that I will not touch it. I looked at you and I said, “I can't do this. You are going to have to eat this whole thing. You take one with the team [inaudible 00:06:22]. 

[00:06:23] JM: My conscious kicked in. I couldn't just leave it there. He put so much work and he was so proud of it. 

[00:06:27] KTMM: Right. It’s rude to leave it. 

[00:06:30] JM: So I had to eat most of it, and it did not convert me to a raw sushi fan. I don't know. Maybe one day. I'll have some smoked salmon every now and again, but that was not the move for me. I did not enjoy it.

[00:06:40] KTMM: The best part was when he got done eating it. He ate, I would probably say, like three-fourths of the plate. He said, “I think it just ate the whole sea.” 

[00:06:49] JM: No, every single fish, every type of fish. I think I had one of them. 

[00:06:54] KTMM: Funny. All right, moving on to this week in travel, we read an article that the Pfizer vaccine, as well as the AstraZeneca vaccine are effective against the Delta variant. So the Pfizer vaccine is 88% effective, which I know Jordan loves because he has Pfizer. 

[00:07:12] JM: Team Pfizer baby. 

[00:07:13] KTMM: I have Moderna, and he likes to say that Pfizer is better than Moderna, which I don't think is very factual. Then –

[00:07:20] JM: Clearly, it is. 

[00:07:22] KTMM: AstraZeneca is 67% effective against the Delta variant, and I'm just waiting to hear how effective the Moderna vaccine is against the variant. So we'll keep you guys updated on that. 

[00:07:35] JM: Well, I like having you around. So I hope it's pretty effective. In other news, now, everybody's so excited that Europe is open. Everybody wants to rush on to France and Italy. 

[00:07:46] KTMM: And mostly Greece. I'm seeing everyone in Greece.

[00:07:50] JM: Yeah. They've been open since May actually. They were one of the first. Funny enough, the Eiffel Tower this week opened for the first time in nine months. People are allowed to go up the Eiffel Tower.

[00:08:01] KTMM: That's amazing. For those of you that haven't been to Paris and to the Eiffel Tower yet, just so you know, you can take an elevator. You buy a ticket. You wait in line. You can take an elevator up the Eiffel Tower. There's shops. Then once you get to a certain level, there's like a spiral staircase that you can take to the top, which is like the ultimate view. 

[00:08:22] JM: Of Paris. You can see the whole city. But there's a catch. You have to show proof of vaccination to go up the Eiffel Tower. If you don't have it, you can take an on-site COVID test underneath the Eiffel Tower. 

[00:08:34] KTMM: Well, how things have changed. 

[00:08:38] JM: Well, it's a reflection of what's going on in Europe because all across Europe, restrictions are being put in place. Even though they're open to tourists, there's a rise in Delta variant cases throughout Europe. In France, I read that even simple things like going to the movies or going to a restaurant, you need to show proof of vaccination or proof of a negative COVID test.

[00:08:59] KTMM: I think that's great. I think it should be implemented everywhere because, okay, you don't want to get the vaccine. All right. Well, sit here and take a COVID test before you participate. I think that's fair.

[00:09:10] JM: I mean, I agree. It’s in the interest of everybody’s safety. So you have to agree to some extent. But it's interesting the different standard. Here it’s a flight. There is just about anything you want to do, and the restrictions extend even further in Greece.

[00:09:26] KTMM: So on July 22nd, Mykonos adds a week-long curfew as cases rise in Greece. So that means from 1:00 AM to 6:00 AM, you have to be indoors, apparently. 

[00:09:39] JM: Unless you are working or going to the hospital.

[00:09:42] KTMM: I was thinking, “Oh, that's not a very strict curfew.” But then Jordan said, “Yeah, but it's Mykonos, you know. They're known for partying and going out and staying out until 5:00 AM. So for them, yeah, that's probably a big change.”

[00:09:55] JM: Yeah, it's major. Mykonos is the party place, so it affects that, for sure. We talked briefly about Canada and when they would reopen. We talked about that on our world wonders episode and we celebrated a little bit because there was an announcement that Canada would open on August 9th. 

[00:10:13] KTMM: Which is my birthday, so I would love to take a trip over to Canada on my birthday. That would be fun.

[00:10:20] JM: But wait. The US has decided to extend its land. 

[00:10:23] KTMM: But wait. There's more. 

[00:10:25] JM: Exactly. The US has decided to extend its land border closures with Canada and Mexico until August 21st due also to a rise in Delta variant cases around the world. So it may have to wait, unless you're flying, because you won't be able to drive back.

[00:10:41] KTMM: Okay. We'll see what's about to happen next. Anyways, in other news, there was a major server outage, which affected who, Jordan?

[00:10:52] JM: So many travel sites were affected by a major server outage, including Delta, Southwest, Airbnb, Vrbo, and all of Expedia’s websites. So that includes Orbitz and Hotels.com. What that meant is people were not able to book new travel or change their existing reservations. But the issue has since been resolved, and your existing trip should not be affected. It did, however, affect people's ability to use the site to make new travel.

[00:11:19] KTMM: That's interesting because maybe we just have good timing, but we are planning another trip. We'll announce the location soon-ish. But we had to change our flights due to a scheduling issue just last week on Delta. So I'm happy we didn't collide with the server outage.

[00:11:39] JM: I think it was this weekend. We just did that. So, yeah, we missed it by like a couple days. So we're lucky. We’re lucky. Yeah. Let's get to the show. We got a good one today. 

[00:11:47] KTMM: Yes, so exciting. It's all about Italy and more. Wait, there’s more.

[00:11:54] JM: Yeah. We got a leading Italy expert, somebody we were very excited to have on the show. By the end, you will definitely want to check out his company, so do not miss this one. Today's guest is a serial travel entrepreneur. He's held just about every position imaginable in the tour industry, and his time as a tour guide in Rome inspired him to start his own travel ventures. He now has turned his company, Walks, into one of the biggest independent tour companies in the world, by focusing on unique and intimate experiences in what is now 14 cities around the globe and counting. We are excited to have on our show today Stephen Oddo. Welcome. 

[00:12:32] SO: Hey, thanks for having me. 

[00:12:33] KTMM: Of course. Thanks for being here. I know this is going to be a difficult question. It always is. We want to start the interview off with asking what was your most memorable travel experience?

[00:12:45] SO: It's tough to choose just one, but there's this one for me that's always stood out. Also, the timing of it was pretty influential on my career. So I went into this big trip with one of my very good friends down in Central America. So we went all around for like a month in Central America, then followed by another month in South America. But we went to Central America. We were in Costa Rica and Guatemala, and we did a lot of the temples. I studied archaeology and was really fascinated by ancient history. But we were in Guatemala and we were staying at like a hostel. We were going to go visit Tikal. We got there kind of in the evening. Everybody's talking about getting up super early for this kind of sunrise tour of Tikal temples, the Mayan temples there. We were like, “Let's do it.” They're like, “How early.” Well, it’s like 4:00.  This was like 10:30. We got there and we're like, “Oh, my god.” So that's crazy. 

We did it. We got up early, and they took us out on these jeeps into the jungle, and it was pitch black, right? So we have flashlights and kind of hiked out through the trees into nothing. We couldn't see where we were. Then I just remember kind of stepping up step after step, fall on the person in front of me. We just kind of sat there in the pitch dark. At one point, the animals start going nuts. All of a sudden, the light starts to come. The sun starts to rise. You start to see the jungle. You start to notice where you're sitting. You're like on the top of this temple, and then you can start to see the other temples kind of in the tops of the trees. 

That experience, I think, was sort of what I was kind of on a high from when I went back to Rome, eventually founding Walks soon after that, which was really meant to be about kind of capturing those exceptional moments in travel.

[00:14:33] KTMM: That really is amazing. I mean, we just got back from Aruba, and we were deciding between Aruba and Costa Rica. I'm kind of regretting [inaudible 00:14:43]. 

[00:14:45] JM: For circumstances out of our control, we couldn't be so active. So that's one of the reasons why we didn't do Costa Rica.

[00:14:51] KTMM: There'll be no experiences like that. That sounds amazing. 

[00:14:53] JM: Right. Like hiking and stuff. Yeah. 

[00:14:56] SO: It's sad to find out that they're not able to climb a lot of the temples anymore like with groups, like what we were – I mean, we had like 30, 40 people sitting up on the temple. I think over time, those are pretty ancient temples. So having people up there every day, all day, I think they're limiting it now. But it was great to have that experience, for sure.

[00:15:15] KTMM: Yeah. Some wear and tear on that. I mean, it's probably good they put a stop to it, but that really does sound amazing. It seems like the hostel groups are very adventurous. If you're looking for adventure, that might be the way to go.

[00:15:29] JM: Yeah. I like the fact that it has really saved your life, and that's a lot of the reason why we are here at On Arrival is because we want to hear those stories about how travel impacts people in these ways. 

[00:15:41] KTMM: And shapes some. Yeah. 

[00:15:42] JM: So I'm interested to hear about how you got your start in the travel industry. It’s been almost 20 years or more than 20 years I think. 

[00:15:50] SO: Maybe more. Yeah. It depends on how you count, and that's actually a pretty obvious answer. That is my family are both in the travel industry. So my dad's been in travel for most of his life and kind of worked the way up all the way through a hotel chain, the hotel company, and ended up running the company for a number of years. Held a lot of tourism positions in San Diego and the Tourism Board and convention and visitors bureau. I kind of came by it honestly, and my mom was actually a travel industry entrepreneur. She founded a travel agency that got quite large, had a whole online build out during the .com era, and had a lot of the big contracts, including Price Club back in the day. So there was a lot of, let's say, travel and entrepreneurship and hospitality from very young. 

[00:16:35] JM: You inherited that. 

[00:16:36] SO: That's right. 

[00:16:37] JM: Yeah. It’s genetic. So what was traveling like then growing up? Because I can imagine that you guys were all over the place.

[00:16:44] SO: Yeah. We traveled a lot. My mom, being especially focused on cruises because it was just such a boom of cruising in the ‘80s and ‘90s, and never really stopped booming but really exploded then. So we did a lot of cruises, which is one way to travel. I think part of the experience of cruising is sort of what attracted me to try to do something on a smaller group scale later on, just because it is so prepackaged and cookie cutter. It’s hard to really deviate from the preset itineraries and the large group buses that they pick you up on. It’s just sort of designed that way, not to say that there aren't operators who do it differently now, which is great to see smaller, more boutique cruise lines and river cruises. 

But growing up around that, we did a lot of that. We did a lot of US, Caribbean, Hawaii, the stuff that you do from San Diego, and thankfully got the travel bug on Europe early. We did a few trips over there and kind of just fell in love with it. I wanted to spend all my time there. 

[00:17:42] JM: Yeah. We can see how that can happen seriously. That's how we feel.

[00:17:47] KTMM: You yourself worked for some of the biggest hotel brands in the world but also worked for five years on the flip side as a tour guide. Not many people have had such a broad experience in the industry. What are some of the things that you appreciated about these two very different roles?

[00:18:04] SO: Yeah. That's another really great question, and I love the nuance there. I think they were very complimentary, right? I mean, I kind of went into hotels because that's what my dad was doing, and it’s what he started out at in college. So when I went to school, I went to UC Santa Barbara, north of LA. There's this wonderful resort there, and I immediately applied. After my first like quarter there, I started working and did various roles there, mostly in kind of the waiting and room service and banquets, a lot of banquets, weddings and so forth, which was a lot of fun. 

It’s a great way to earn money and flexible hours, and that's really what prepared me for getting more into the hospitality approach and great service. That was at a place that was part of the Hilton Hotels, the Fess Parker Resort, which is actually still there. I got to meet Fess a bunch of times. He was an amazing actor from back in the day who played Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett. Then later, I worked for Estancia Hotels and Resorts. Then I worked at Starwood’s flagship over there. It was the Westin St. Francis on Union Square. 

These different experiences, some of them were short lived. I was only at the Westin for less than a year but really got to look to see how cities and these great hotels connect in the experience of the city together. I was just always really thinking about what's the next thing I want to do, and leaving the Westin is what really prompted me to go back to Rome because I had taken a hiatus and moved to San Francisco and wanted to try to go back maybe into restaurants or something. I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. But then being there and meeting people and exploring the city, I realized that touring was what I wanted to do, so I went back to Rome. 

[00:19:42] KTMM: Wow. Yeah. We love the Westin. 

[00:19:45] JM: We love a good Westin. 

[00:19:47] SO: Still a great place to go. Yeah. I’ve stayed there numerous times since then. 

[00:19:48] KTMM: It really is. We got married at a Westin and then –

[00:19:53] JM: We went to the Westin Maldives, which is we highly recommend. 

[00:19:56] SO: Oh, my god. Yeah. I read about it. 

[00:19:58] KTMM: It was like the newest –

[00:19:59] JM: Resort, yeah, at the time. 

[00:20:00] KTMM: The newest resort, so it was really fun. 

[00:20:02] JM: I think now the St. Regis or something. 

[00:20:04] SO: Yeah. JW is another one. It has an underwater [inaudible 00:20:07] restaurant that's it's really famous too. 

[00:20:10] JM: She's not going to that restaurant. I can tell you that. 

[00:20:11] KTMM: No. I was watching like – I don't know if it's Shark Week or it's something right now. 

[00:20:14] JM: Definitely Shark Week. 

[00:20:16] KTMM: I was just watching a bunch of like attack shows last night, so I would never do that, like the underwater hotel room experience is not for me. Not even the restaurant thing. But some people, it's their thing.

[00:20:28] SO: Well, I live here in Cape Cod, and we have all the great white sharks. In fact, Jaws was based on this area. So, yeah, it's a little nerve-racking when you go to the beach every day with your daughter, and she played in the water. You're just like, “Is today going to be the day?” 

[00:20:40] JM: Well, whatever you do, do not turn on whatever she was watching yesterday. 

[00:20:45] KTMM: Yeah. It was just National Geographic. 

[00:20:45] JM: I don't think I'll get her back in the ocean ever again. So you're back in Rome. You're a tour guide. I'm sure for a while you were loving just the experience. What prompted you to say, “I want to make this bigger.”? Like, “I want to start something. I want to make a company out of this.”

[00:21:04] SO: Yeah. I mean, actually, that had been the intention like when I got back to it. I got it a bit in 2005 and ’06. When I got back to Rome, I was actually going back to start a company of some kind. I didn't know what kind of group it was going to be, if it's going to be a private group or is it just going to be me. I was kind of running some tours, mostly around the Vatican. Eventually, by leaving a lot of tours there, I met a number of people. We set up an agency where I would continue to leave, but there'll be other people. We had salespeople. Once that kind of started to grow, I definitely knew I wanted to keep doing something in tours, but I had bigger ambitions from the get go. 

But, yeah, so I was guiding and I love guiding, but it wasn't really my passion. It was come something of like I really enjoyed learning about the material and sharing it with others. But day in, day out, guiding is hard, and it takes a particular type of person who really loves people, who wants to be out there, meeting different people every day. I don't have that skill. I mean, I was able to do it for a while and enjoyed a lot of that. But for me, it was more about the business side and technology. I’ve always been kind of a leader in developing various technologies in the space and even years before, so that was where I really wanted to land. I wanted to be able to develop technology to help the experience of guiding and booking and kind of running a tour operation in a new way. 

That was even from the very beginning when we started in Rome. Rome was just where I happen to be, but the intention was always to kind of launch it everywhere. 

[00:22:36] KTMM: I have a question about that. Like what made you so comfortable in Rome? Were you fluent in the language? Or you knew the area really well? You vacation there a lot? What was it that made you start there?

[00:22:46] SO: It was kind of coincidence, really. I mean, it was random. I had hung out with this Italian friend that I met in California, and he invited me to come visit out there. I'd finished school. I really was excited to kind of go and get back to Europe again because, as I said, I love the ancient history and art history and so forth. So I kind of just happened to go back there, floated around to the backpacking thing for a while. But I just kept going back to Rome as a home base. I loved it there. 

Yes, also partly familiar origins. So my last name, Oddo, is actually Italian, even though we call it Oddo. In Italy, it's Oddo. There's a famous Italian soccer player who played in the World Cup in 2006 when they won, Massimo Oddo. So, yeah, there's some of that. There's the history of my grandfather and his family coming over, and that was part of it and some interest there and then just the beauty of the city. I grew up speaking Spanish and I went there. I learned Italian pretty quickly, like I was speaking more or less fluently after a year, and just got better and better as I stayed longer and longer. So I kind of just fell in love with the culture, the mindset. Rome is a very special place, I think. 

[00:23:55] KTMM: It’s easy to do there. It's really easy to do there. 

[00:23:57] SO: I know. 

[00:23:59] JM: Moviglia over here completely can relate to –

[00:24:01] KTMM: In America, Moviglia. Yeah, the same kind of thing. I get it. Italy, for me, it was my first time overseas. I flew over to visit Jordan, who's playing for Virtus Roma, the basketball team there. It was just like the most amazing thing to me. Rome will always have a special place in my heart, and I can't wait to get back to Italy. I mean, I feel like when we were in Rome, we did like – He had a vehicle there, so we drove like the coast. We went to Naples and – Where else did we go?

[00:24:33] JM: Positano?

[00:24:34] KTMM: Yes. What is the city that’s –

[00:24:36] JM: Pompei? 

[00:24:37] KTMM: Pompei. Yeah. That was just like – It’s ingrained in my mind.

[00:24:41] JM: Yeah. We went to Florence Firenze. We’re moving a little bit but we lived there for a year. You lived there for eight years. What are some of the things that you love most about Rome because you can sense it that you have a special feeling about it?

[00:24:54] SO: Yeah, absolutely. I think it leaves a mark at anybody that spends a lot of time there, even just a little time there. But even like you were telling me earlier, you guys love to go and just grab espressos everywhere you go because it's part of the culture you pick up there, and it's hard to drop it. That’s sort of what it is. Living there over the years, you just kind of learn to appreciate the freedom of being able to go and just have a day trip somewhere, like you just said, going down to Positano or Naples. Naples is one of my favorite cities in the world. I went there. Just it was a random day. I decided to go to Naples on the train. I loved having a scooter. I had a scooter for most of the time I was there, a little Motorino. People say, “Oh, it's dangerous to try the streets.” I mean, I could see that. But if you kind of know what you're doing, you can get around pretty great that way, and it's ideal, and it's the main method of transportation there. So that was always, I think, one of my favorite things. 

Actually, just funnily enough, we were just talking the other day about potentially getting another Vespa here, getting a Vespa here. We’re moving back to Boston, and it might be a good city to have a Vespa because I think my wife knows that I loved having it. While it does make her nervous to see me running around on it, but that's the kind of thing. I mean, it's just the great long lunches, the seaside. I mean, come on. Romans love going to the seaside and just having some of the best seafood. The wine is amazing everywhere you go, but it's not like stuffy or expensive. It's just like always good. It's always there. Yeah. I mean, it's different from France. I love France too. But the Italian and especially the Roman way is I think very much more relaxed, laid back, accessible. I love that about it. 

[00:26:33] JM: Hearing your story about the scooter like transported me back to like being in traffic in Rome. You’re right. I think like we still embrace a lot of the mentality from that first year as definitely when I started drinking coffee but the long lunches, the long dinners. I mean –

[00:26:49] KTMM: The way of life just in general. I remember when we were there. Jordan’s like, “Oh, this is why you're such a bad driver because Italian, and Italian drivers are horrible.” 

[00:26:59] SO: Yeah, that's true. 

[00:27:01] KTMM: But, yeah, I feel like if you can drive a Vespa in Rome, you can definitely drive it in Boston, so no worries there.

[00:27:08] SO: Yeah. No, they’re more aggressive. It's just a different kind of drive, especially if you drive – Like you were talking about driving a car down in Naples like, yeah, it's nerve-racking. It's not like what, I mean, certain parts you may be driving in Jersey or something that's kind of like that. But they really are aggressive there. I mean, they know what they're doing it. I would say they're like careful in many ways. But, yeah, the whole just the approach of aggressive driving is intense for the average American driver I think. 

[00:27:35] JM: Rightt. 

[00:27:36] KTMM: Yeah. So you were in Rome and then you got the confidence to start expanding to other Italian cities. Quickly, it seemed like it happened. Tell us about that process for Walks. 

[00:27:48] SO: Yeah. Well, I mean, our original kind of founding thesis was, “Hey, let's get great tour guides. Let's build a network of tour guides. Let’s make it really easy for them to work and have a very seamless way of interacting with them and booking them and kind of making sure that the best guides are getting our top clients.” Our customers were really demanding to go more places. We were getting the requests. We said, “Let’s try to fulfill everything we get requested,” which is not necessarily what you want to do as an entrepreneur. It's not like good advice to give someone trying to start a business, like don't just do everything your customers asked. 

But in this case, because we were building the network anyway and because we wanted to have access to attractions and access to the top tour guides and as many places as it made sense, we knew that was going to take us to Pompei and Florence and Venice and Milan. So that was sort of the natural progression of things that the places that people were going for the most part. We weren't trying to do tours in every small town. It’s not really – There are businesses who do that and there are guides who are fabulous in every small town. But this was a business more about reaching the most people and reaching people where they're going. 

That's why we ended up going to places like Paris, New York, and Istanbul later. These are major destinations where millions of customers are passing through, international customers, which allows us to create more product differentiation, which is just not necessary or possible in a small town, right? You're not going to get the demand to require so many different types of products, so that is really just a business model approach that we have.

[00:29:25] JM: I wish we knew about Walks before. We've been lucky enough to live in two of those cities too, Istanbul and Paris. 

[00:29:30] SO: We were in Istanbul too, yeah. The basketball there is awesome too. That's cool. 

[00:29:36] KTMM: Yeah. We were there. Two years in Turkey and we just love it there. 

[00:29:38] JM: Yeah. We lived in Istanbul and Izmir. 

[00:29:41] SO: Which years?

[00:29:42] JM: We were in Turkey 2018 and ’19. Yeah. 

[00:29:44] KTMM: 2018 and ‘19. Yeah. 

[00:29:47] SO: Wow, so recently. Okay, cool. Yeah. I mean, we were –

[00:29:49] KTMM: And 2020. Yeah.

[00:29:51] SO: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. We were starting up Walks. It was called initially Walks of Turkey, and that was back in 2014 and ’15, and it started really well. We were immediately doing great numbers, but there were a few attacks in the city that year. Then there was the coup attempt. Then there was just a number of things that happened. For the city, I mean, I went back. I went back every time. In fact, I went back after one of the attacks right after there was a bomb right by our meeting point. I mean, just horrible things. But, after the coup, tourism really froze up there, and we actually had to pull out eventually. We just – Americans weren't going there anymore. Still a wonderful city I'd go back every day of the week. But I think it's going to take some time for it to recover from just the number of things that happened in rapid succession there. 

But, yeah, I mean, love that place. That was one of the next places we expanded after we went outside of Italy. So I moved back to the States but started to coordinate more of the network that was going beyond Italy. We started a big office in Austin, where we put our developers and our guests’ experience, call center folks, and really just started to build out some headquarters there.

[00:31:04] KTMM: Okay. So Walks, when people hear the name, they might think that it's specifically a walking tour company. Can you explain the scope of experiences that Walks offers?

[00:31:16] SO: You guys ask really good question. I can't tell you how many people I’ve done podcasts or various interviews, and they always say like, “So Walks, you only do walking tours because your name is Walks,” and like they’re literally the first people to say, “What is actually the scope because it's not –”Yeah, that's a great question. So the idea of Walks was really, yes, it was initially walking tours. But it was more about slow travel, about the idea and the feeling you get when you take a walk through a city and being more conscientious, more mindful. A lot of the language we use of like see the city from the ground level, like get off of the bus. 

All our products involve some kind of a walk and an encounter with an artisan or a local or something. So you’re never sitting on the bus, getting pointed out of windows. You may have a bus or a train or a boat, but we get off and stop in unique places. You guys mentioned earlier Pompei and Positano. One of our top selling tours for many years has been the Pompei-Positano experience, which when we started it, it wasn't really reinventing the wheel. But in a way, it was because all the tours at the time were just being charter buses taking people from Rome to Pompei, dropping them off, and it was like 50 bucks. This was a much more involved experience. We went to Positano. We stopped for panoramic shots on the Amalfi Coast. We went to a little Limoncello vineyard. I mean these kinds of things that you could really get out and see more. Because we use smaller vehicles, you could actually get to some of those little towns that you can't get on a charter bus. 

So by having that aspect to it, I think that's really what makes the difference in creating a really great tour and a great experience for the guests. But, yeah, so we do all of those things. It's hundreds of products over the years, everything from buses and boats and trains, and you name it. But it's really about experiences, and the walks are part of that but not only on foot.

[00:33:10] JM: I'm trying to imagine driving a bus down the Amalfi Coast. It’s just –

[00:33:14] KTMM: I mean, you see it happen. They're professionals.

[00:33:17] JM: Oh, man. 

[00:33:18] SO: Well, you get those tall buses that they have, the SITA buses, and it's like cheap to go on the Amalfi Coast. But it's so stressful because the cliff is right there. It's just like, yeah, you feel like you're trying to dip in a little. But, I mean, those guys, they drive really well. But, yeah, I feel like it's – For us, the experiences can be anything. But our hashtag, our mantra, take walks, it's really about don't just take any tour. Take walks. Just do something a little more off the beaten path, a little more in depth. Go one step further.

[00:33:48] KTMM: What I like about that is we even mentioned it on our last trip in Aruba. It's like, “Hey, we might not ever come back here, so why not get a full embodied experience of where you're going?” I think with Walks you can get that. You're not just going to be, like you said, looking out the window. You’re going to be experiencing things and having these like exclusive experiences you can't get when you go to TripAdvisor. 

[00:34:15] JM: No shade the TripAdvisor.  

[00:34:16] KTMM: Sorry. 

[00:34:18] SO: In fact, we do partner with them, and some of our stuff is sold there. But it's hard. It is a lot of stuff there, and that's the difficulty, right? When we're – By being an operator who is intentionally designing products that are high quality, you don't have to worry about noise. There is no noise. Just like if it’s on there, it's good. Whereas a TripAdvisor marketplace, everything's on there, so not everything is good. 

[00:34:40] KTMM: Everything is there. 

[00:34:41] SO: It’s not possible, which is a different need, right? Sometimes, you need to look through everything to figure out what the best things are. Or sometimes, you just want to know, “Tell me where the good stuff is.” 

[00:34:52] JM: So tell us about one of your favorite experiences that Walks offers. 

[00:34:56] SO: Well, it's a good question because we actually just launched a brand new one, right? We got our start in the Vatican and in Rome and the Colosseum and those kinds of special experiences that they offer and that we offer there and many of them which we designed ourselves for the first time that hadn't been available before. So we have a new tour that is just launching. It's called the Key Master’s Tour. Essentially, it's a Sistine Chapel super VIP tour, but it's not crazy impossible out of reach. Like one thing for us that's important is to be accessible so that really everyone could go on this, if that's something that they wanted to do. We have different levels of Vatican tour. We have different levels of Colosseum tours. Some are more expensive, but nothing's like thousands of dollars, right? We don't – Like that wouldn't make sense. 

The Key Master’s Tours is the earliest way you can get into the Vatican, and you go to the Sistine Chapel with the key master who brings out what they call a [inaudible 00:35:53], which is basically like a giant chain of keys from hundreds of years old to today. They unlock the doors of the museum and turn on the lights one by one. It starts at 6:00 AM, right? So you're really there waking up the museum. Then you go into the Sistine Chapel. You're the first ones in there. The lights turn on while you're in there. So that tour is literally going online today, and it's going to run. They actually shut down all types of these kinds of tours over the pandemic, but this will be the first one coming back, and it starts this weekend. So we'll be running that on Saturdays for the next through the end of the year. 

That's the kind of stuff we love to do; exclusive, special access, the best guides, stuff that really will take the general experience, which is often not as good. I mean, there's no question that being on a group of 100 people, getting off a cruise ship, and fumbling through the museums in a herd is just not the best way to see it. You'll still see the thing. But there's levels of ways to see things, and I think we try to design stuff that is really when you can say, “Yeah, I've heard about how other people do it but I did it the best way.”

[00:37:01] JM: Wow. I mean, that's one of the coolest tours I've probably heard about. 

[00:37:05] KTMM: Yeah. I would love to go when we go back. Remember what happened last time? 

[00:37:09] SO: Exactly. 

[00:37:11] KTMM: Seriously. 

[00:37:11] JM: This is why you take Walks, exactly why. So you don’t have to hear that. 

[00:37:15] SO: Everybody's had that experience. Like whether it's there or whether it's at the Statue of Liberty, whether it's – There’s tons of examples around the world. The Eiffel Tower, you can have these super touristy experiences but you still see the thing. Or you can look for something that will really get magical.

[00:37:31] JM: Last question as it pertains to Walks, the pandemic, where it seems we're on the backside of it, and you guys have had a really successful run so far. How big can Walks get, and like what's next for Walks?

[00:37:45] SO: The question of today really is how quickly can we recover? We're nowhere near where we would like to be and nowhere near 2019. Let's say the US is certainly recovering faster, our New York, San Francisco tours. We're opening up more cities in the US, so we'll be opening Boston, San Diego, and Chicago in the next month, within the next 30 days. But obviously, our core and our main focus has always been on Europe and the major cities there. We're largely servicing an American audience, so it's going to take a while for us to fully recover. 

But, yeah, I mean, we want to be everywhere. Let’s be honest. Now, with our new partners at City Experiences, which was previously the Hornblower group. They are really looking to grow their land-based excursions and experiences, and we're leading the charge. So with their blessing, we've been expanding. We've been growing. Really, that was my hope to come back out of this and really start building again because the last thing I wanted to do is go back in time five years and start like from that point. I'd rather just keep doing what we were doing and build up. So that's what we're getting to do now. 

[00:38:51] KTMM: Yeah. Just a PSA, you can follow, I know you'll plug it at the end, but @walkstours. I've been following your Instagram page, and it's really, one, took me back to Italy and made me really anxious to go back. Two, it's exciting to see. Like I think you guys announced today the Boston tour. So it's exciting to see like when you guys add something new. So I've been following you guys for just a few weeks but –

[00:39:17] JM: Thanks for that. [inaudible 00:39:18] walk around the house.

[00:39:21] SO: Yeah. I'm excited to be able to walk out my house in Boston and see one of our tours, which is – 

[00:39:25] KTMM: Yeah. That would be cool. 

[00:39:26] SO: I get to see both Boston and San Diego come to life, places that I've lived. San Francisco, obviously, I live there. We have tours there. We run the Alcatraz tour as well. So that's, obviously, a big bucket list for a lot of people. But it's time to get back to Europe, so I got to plug Europe. That's where we want you to be. We know that going to travel in the US, you could do it all the time. But Europe is open. I was just in Italy last days ago and I'm heading back to France in two weeks. 

[00:39:54] JM: Yeah, we saw that. You took the new Delta plane to Italy. 

[00:39:57] SO: That's right, the new flight. I was like the second person on the new Delta experience where you actually didn't need to have your tests and all that. You could just go with your vaccination card. Then you didn't need to test on the way back. But it was super easy. Honestly, it was even easier than some of the pre-pandemic travel because of how crowded things could be at the airports and chaos. It was actually quite nice to go back there, and people were so happy. Let's say the average person in Italy pre-pandemic was maybe a little bit kind of tired of tourism or can seem like there were times where there was just a little too much tourism, especially in places like Rome and Venice. I think the appreciation has come back, which has made it even better, so great time to go when things are quieter, when people are eager to see tourists again. 

Not to say that they aren't eager to see tourists before. There are a lot of – Especially tour guides, right? Like that's why we work with guides. They're always eager to see tourists and certainly eager to see them now. So I think that's just a testament to being a great time to go back and explore again.

[00:41:03] KTMM: Yeah. I feel like if you're traveling close to America, you might really experience those booms of travel, where if you're going to Europe, I think people might be a little more hesitant. So this might be the perfect time to get that personalized experiences, smaller groups, of walk tours. Really take advantage of that. 

[00:41:22] JM: Too bad you guys don’t have a Walks Hawaii. You guys could do great business right now.

[00:41:26] SO: It won’t be too long before we get there. I think we’ll get there soon. There's lots of great things you could do there. I mean, especially describing the stuff I'm describing, right? There's a lot of very redundant, touristy sort of experiences there, and there isn't really a lot of differentiation, right? That's what we come in and do. We look at the market and say, “Hey, yeah. There's 50 luaus. But like is there anything authentic? Can we find one? Can we make one? Can we do a make your own luau with some real people who used to be part of those luaus but left?” Find a new angle and that's –

I’ve been to Hawaii a bunch of times, so I could talk about that. But, I mean, I agree that like there's a lot of places that could really use this approach, and we're seeing it more and more, right? I think more and more people and companies are coming up, trying to do that. We're just trying to bring it all together in one place. 

[00:42:16] KTMM: I love that. All right, so let's take it back to Europe. Take it back to Italy for a second. If you had to recommend one city for people to visit in Italy, what would it be?

[00:42:27] SO: That’s such a tough one. I mean, I'm very passionate about Venice and why I like it. Let's say, I'm not going to let you sit and say one city. I'm going to say two cities because they're very different. I like the controversial places, so Venice and Naples. I think if you ask the average person what do they think about Naples, what do they think about Venice, you're going to hear a lot of different things in the US, especially. I spend a lot of time in these places but I think there's something magical and authentic about them that you can't really replicate. That won't be there forever, which makes them even more important to visit. Yes, it is hard. It's hard to do that as well, especially your first time. 

I mean, my first time there was a total disaster. That’s what makes it great because I think, well, yeah, you can have a great experience in Florence every single time you go. It's quite easy to have a good experience there because it's so compact. It's easy to walk around. Almost every restaurant is good. Everybody's nice. I mean, it's great. But I like when you have to work a little bit for it. With Venice and the boats and the alleyways and bridges, it’s a real complicated place to find what you're looking for. But if you do, and again, tour guides and well-designed experiences can really do that, you can have an incredible experience there, and it may become your favorite place. 

I'd say give Venice a chance to be your favorite place, even though yeah. Is it too crowded? Okay. Well then don't go June 30th. Go in the fall. Go in the early spring when there's hardly anybody there. There's not going to be that many people there now. I'll let you know because I'm going in three weeks. The same goes for Naples. You might have heard stories. It's super dangerous in Naples. Listen, it's more dangerous in the average American city than it is in Naples. It is safe and wonderful. Yeah, there was a bad period, but it's really cleaned up, and I'd say it's definitely one of my favorite places to go. Best food in the world, some of the best sightseeing and museums, and some of the best ancient places to visit. 

Obviously, you mentioned Pompei. There's Herculaneum. There's [inaudible 00:44:30]. There's a number of others. So I think as a place that really delivers, Naples, for me, is maybe number one. I'm not sure. I go back and forth. 

For Italy, for me, it's – I’ve lived a lot of places in Europe and I've spent lots of time in Rome. 

[00:44:46] JM: That’s a hot take. 

[00:44:48] SO: But also I spent a full winter season in the north up in [inaudible 00:44:52] by the Matajur and on the Italian side of the glacier. Going from the top to bottom, I'd say those places that you should put on your list that you should get a great guide to take you around and show you the best places. Do your research, read the blogs, listen to podcasts, and that'll be the way to go.

[00:45:11] KTMM: I have a question about Venice Walks. Can you tell me about one of the tours or experiences you guys offer in Venice? Just because I've been so many times, I wouldn’t be interested.

[00:45:22] SO: Obviously, kind of the standard stuff that you want to see. We do it really well on the Doge’s Palace and see the Rialto Bridge and so forth. But I'll tell you two things really quickly that really stand out. We were really the ones to bring to the public for the first time the exclusive tour of the after-hours of St. Mark's Basilica, which is really they open the church just for the group, and all the lights are off. All day all night, the lights are off, except for during these tours. So they take you in, and it's all dimly lit, and they turn on the lights while you're in there, and you can see the illuminated mosaics, which you can't really see as well during the day because of the lighting, and they're being pretty poor, but they don't run them in the daytime. You get this incredible, glittering, illuminated golden ceiling of the Byzantine mosaics there. That's a truly exceptional one. 

We have another one, which is a boat ride. I don't know that it's back on sail just yet, but it's coming back, and that's a wine and food experience out on the islands. It's basically an islands experience, which is, again, you'll find a lot of them that are 50, 60 bucks. But what you're finding is mostly the glass factories, and some of these shops are subsidizing the boat so that they can bring and drop off groups of people there. The experience is just not good, and we tried for years to find somebody who would do it right. We just couldn't get to do it, so we actually shut down those doors for a long time. 

Then finally, I just kind of push and push. We've got to do it right and we found some incredible venues, a really small producer of glass that has kind of restored this cathedral. So it's not the actual glass factory. They're bringing these pieces there and into this incredible space. So it's kind of the glass cathedral of Murano. So we take our guests there. Then we go over to this island called Mazzorbo, where they grow a very, very rare grape called the Dorona. That is at a Michelin-starred restaurant that's on the property, as well as the winemaker, and you meet the winemaker. He’s been written up and everything. Super, super incredible wines, you’ve never tasted anything like it because the grapes have to grow at like six inches from the water table so that the roots are like flat like this. It’s soaked up some of the salt flavor. It’s very, very interesting stuff. You go there and then you go check out this ancient basilica.

Yeah. I mean, there's stuff like that out there in the islands, and most people don't find it. But that's what we try to do. We try to go find it and make it accessible. Make it something that you can easily book and know that you're going to get a great guide. That's what I love to do.

[00:47:58] KTMM: I did want to just comment on one thing you said. I love that you said if we can't do it right, we're not going to do it. I have that mentality about so many things in life and I think it's so important. It speaks to you and your company that if you're not going to be able to be the best at it, you don't want any part in it. I think that's cool, very cool.

[00:48:17] SO: Yeah. But leave the people who want to do the mass market stuff. There's always going to be demand for that. But if you can make it special, then I think that's what makes it worth doing. But otherwise, we're happy to wait and find something that will deliver. But, yeah, I think, hey, look. These are great places to go. You're going to always have a great time. It’s not about comparing who did the better this or that. But I think you've got to really be intentional about what you're trying to do as an operator, as an experienced creator. We like to say we intelligently design these tours. We don't just put up what the other people sell. 

I think that's the difference is that, yeah, if you were running a Louvre tour, could you just take people through and show them the three famous things that they know, and then end the tour after 90 minutes? That's what 75% of the operators do. We could do that too but we couldn't. It just wouldn't do it justice. We couldn't bring ourselves to kind of shortchange it like that.

[00:49:13] JM: Honestly, it's been a pleasure to hear all these stories and hear about Walks today. We’re so happy that you were able to join us. 

[00:49:21] SO: My pleasure. 

[00:49:22] JM: Before we go, I want to help our listeners. KT plugged it earlier, but tell everyone where they can follow Walks. If you want your own personal, where can they follow your adventures?

[00:49:33] SO: Yeah. So we're @walkstours on Instagram. We’re on YouTube. You can find Walks of Italy or Walks Tours pretty much anywhere. Facebook, we’re Walks Tours. I'm personally @travelvr. It's just like traveler but spelled with VR, mostly because it's like I was really into and still am, done a lot of work in the virtual reality world and creating a lot of 3D videos, 360 videos, and things like that. So that's why my Instagram handle is that. But, yeah, I've really had a great time joining you guys here. 

We're also very active on Twitter, by the way. @Walks is actually us, and I'm @StephenOddo on Twitter. So, yeah, you can find us there. Follow our stuff. We've been posting lots of videos, lots of stuff from live on location. Sometimes, I'm even posting or guides are posting. You can watch our tours running in different cities around the world and get excited about your next trip.

[00:50:23] KTMM: Amazing. Well, we're excited. We're excited to book a tour with you in the future as well. So thanks so much. We're really, really excited. 

[00:50:29] SO: Well, let’s do it.

[00:50:30] JM: Yeah. Thank you, man. Great time.

[00:50:32] SO: Sounds good. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:50:33] KTMM: Thanks for listening to another episode of On Arrival. We've had so much fun recording these episodes and sharing them with you every week.

[00:50:40] JM: If you liked this episode, share it with somebody and don't forget to subscribe to our show, On Arrival Podcast, on all podcast platforms. We would really appreciate it if you would write us a positive review, wherever you choose to listen. 

[00:50:53] KTMM: Look for us on social media @onarrivaltraval on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

[00:50:58] JM: If you're looking for more episodes, you can always head over to onarrival.com. 

[END]